Thomas Paine on to Washington
March on Washington, The Silent Majority Silent No More, Protest must turn to rebellion, wake up Congress, March on Congress
March on Washington, The Silent Majority Silent No More, Protest must turn to rebellion, wake up Congress, March on Congress
@SamWiseGingy “I concede the insult war. You are much better at insulting me? than I am at insulting you. In the mean time actually may want to read Paine.” and in the meantime, damp down you ill-placed arrogance. Read what liberalism (modern usage) means. You have potential that at present is wasted on obsession with worrying about 300yr old liberalism (which NEVER existed in our early system). You could obsess about the current ruinous liberalism, that I would commiserate with.
@c2inomaha
I concede the insult war. You are much better at insulting me than I am at insulting you.
In the mean time actually may want to read Paine.
@SamWiseGingy “Giving away land was liberal because the government was intentionally distributing wealth in order to create an egalitarian? nation.” Sam, for someone who insults others, and acts as if you are so well-read, how come you don’t know the definitions? Liberalism (today’s, not the pre-1930′s definition which meant something far different) has nothing to do with opening up the territories to settlement, and has nothing to do with “distributing wealth”. That willful ignorance.
@c2inomaha Giving away land was liberal because the government was intentionally distributing wealth in order to create an egalitarian nation.
@c2inomaha
The issue in question is the thought of Paine and Paine’s influence on other founding fathers.
Again if you don’t know Basso is a fraud then you don’t know Paine.
@c2inomaha You know Paine and Franklin wrote their opinions and vision for America down. Why you go read a book or two of theirs. Then you will understand their thought for yourself.
Again if you think Basso makes a fair representation of Paine then you are either/or illiterate, ignorant, misinformed, or dishonest.
But don’t take my word for it. Go learn something!
@SamWiseGingy quotes are the lynchpin of debate (or perhaps not), but… “A wise and frugal government shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.” — Thomas Jefferson, First Inaugural Address, March 4, 1801 “He that goes a borrowing goes a sorrowing” –Ben Franklin, apparently referring to Obama
@SamWiseGingy quotes are the end-all of understanding history? odd and odder… swell: “The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.” –Thomas Jefferson “If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one…”– James Madison
@SamWiseGingy gosh, I will run out and pick up something to read from Franklin. Perhaps his autobiography, which I still have after reading it 20yrs ago. Or maybe something by Jefferson, which I use alot to beat silly big govt liberals over the head with. But I think we are done – I don’t mind your insults but your silly logic using some quotes to dismiss their very public positions (and successes) isn’t even a classic liberal deliberate mis-interpretation, it looks to be a crackpot pet theory
@SamWiseGingy perhaps it isn’t that I “haven’t read” history, so much as it is your interpretation of history is so different from mine…or anyone else’s that I have ever heard of. Which is probably why we will waste time debating. Because I can point all day long to the Philadelphia debates, the essays in newspapers such as the Federalist Papers, and of course the resulting federalist system. Whilst you will quote writings that never entered discourse during that time as somehow relevant.
@SamWiseGingy “that was liberal” ? I see….so a country created to serve the people, not the other way around, and “gave” away land to the people (odd thought, that, since the govt WAS the people) is by your mind “liberal”? I think given your wonderfully orphaned theories, that you are a crackpot. Consider this – every historical example of “liberal” govt has gone bankrupt because it is a stupid, failed model. Re-read the Federalist Papers and rediscover the real debate-and better model.
@c2inomaha
I have quotes. What do you have?
@c2inomaha
As to the significance of these quotes it proves one that the Thomas Paine of History and this clown Basso have nothing in common. Two it proves that you didn’t know that Basso is a clown, which proves you know no real history but only that crap they feed you on Fox and right wing talk radio.
Again we gave away land to common citizens. No other country had done that in Europe. Thereby the US never practiced feudalism. That was radical, that was liberal.
@c2inomaha
Correction:
You haven’t read much of their writings have you. No they weren’t closet liberals. They were out of the closet liberals. As was Jefferson as well and you ever bother to pick a book that either Paine, Jefferson, or Franklin wrote you would know as much. They all favored giving away land to common citizens in order to create a more democratic society, which are nation did in the early 1800s.
Obscure quote = a quote you haven’t heard before and wish wasn’t there.
@c2inomaha You haven’t read much of their writings have. No they were closet liberals. They were out of the closet liberals. As was Jefferson as well and you ever bother to pick a book that either Paine, Jefferson, or Franklin wrote you would know as much.
@SamWiseGingy I am disappointed to hear you quote obscure quotes that seem to have no applicability to the forming of the nation yet imply these do. Figure out how your quotes have historical import, then get back to me, (because it looks like it doesn’t, sorry). Please shed knee-jerk liberal-sounding reflex to label me “Tea Partier” – as a Jeffersonian Constitutionalist I realize it is too subtle for the historically-challenged progressives, but something you should be able to appreciate.
@SamWiseGingy soooo, all you have is a couple quotes? Disappointing. You don’t have anything else from history except some quotes and a tract written during the French Revolution, and you expect me to buy into your theme that Ben Franklin and Tom Paine were closet liberals? I call bullshit on that. Produce something substantive.
@c2inomaha
That’s because you Tea Partiers like to make up history as you go along, just like Glenn Beck and Mr Basso here.
So start reading real history books instead of your right wing propaganda.
@SamWiseGingy I admit to being astonished that Ben Franklin wrote this. I will be even more astonished should you be able to prove he brought up these concepts at any time during the forming of the Republic. Alot was discussed during those debates over Federalism and anti-Federalism, but I don’t recall reading anything remotely like this.
@SamWiseGingy “The King didn’t give away land in the North West Territory and west of the Mississippi, the US government did that.” But again, you are wiping out his work on “Common Sense” and the American freedom movement for later writing “Agrarian Justice”, while in France 16yrs later – and which concepts were never discussed in America. To stretch the point….does the good work he did disappear because he hung out with the Frogs and got a bit weird a decade and a half later?
@c2inomaha
The King didn’t give away land in the North West Territory and west of the Mississippi, the US government did that.
When we gave away the NW Territory many of the founders were alive and serving in Congress and or the White House.
@c2inomaha
Part 1
Consider this Franklin quote:
All property, indeed, except the savage’s temporary cabin, his bow, his matchcoat and other little Acquisitions absolutely necessary for his Subsistence, seems to me to be the creature of public Convention. Hence, the public has the rights of regulating Descents, and all other Conveyances of Property, and even of limiting the quantity and uses of it.
@c2inomaha
Part 2
All the property that is necessary to a man is his natural Right, which none may justly deprive him of, but all Property superfluous to such Purposes is the property of the Public who, by their Laws have created it and who may, by other Laws dispose of it.
You can see the similarity between Franklin’s quote and Paine’s quote. Both held that wealth was accumulated in dependence on society.
Franklin’s thought as much as anyone’s made America.
@SamWiseGingy eh.. you do realize that land was granted by the King, don’t you? And that Paine was trying to address this practice of enriching his cronies? Even if we disagree on that rather telling point, how can you think it appropriate to wipe out Paine’s (successful) work on creating a society where “the govt works for the people” soley based on the Agrarian Justice tract (which was never even applicable to the new republic)?
@C3INOMAHA REEEETAAAARD